229-JIM "SONE" SONEFELD -HOOTIE &THE BLOWFISH

Chuck LaFLange (00:00.744)
Hello everybody, watchers, listeners, supporters of all kinds. Welcome to another episode of the Ask Us to Awesome podcast. I'm your host, Chuck LaFlange checking in from Krabi, Thailand, halfway around the world and virtual studio is Jim Sonefeld. How are you doing today, Jim?

soni (00:09.346)
It's a wonderful day to be alive and clean and sober. We're the one below that one, South Carolina we call us.

Chuck LaFLange (00:18.984)
It is so, it is so right. And you're in North Carolina? You said?

South Carolina, okay, okay.

That's great, man. That's great. And so I guess I could have done a big long introduction for you, Jim, but suffice to say, you are the drummer for Hootie and the Blowfish, which is absolutely iconic band. I had no idea, Jim, until I was reading your bio that ninth bestselling album of all time in the US. Does that still hold?

soni (00:33.126)
Thank you.

soni (00:53.154)
It still holds and is a bizarre number to even wrap around one's head. It just...

Chuck LaFLange (00:54.736)
Wow.

Chuck LaFLange (00:59.376)
single digits in the biggest music market in the world. I mean, that's crazy, man. Right? You know.

soni (01:06.058)
Yeah, if I could ever find someone to explain how that happened through, you know, third, it's been out for, let's see, Crack to Review, that album came out in 1994, it's been out for that long, I can't explain it. So I'm thankful for it.

Chuck LaFLange (01:21.)
No kidding, no kidding. You know, the first memory I have of hearing your guys' music, I was in juvie, actually. That's, yeah. I was just thinking, yeah, I totally remember that, playing through that little radio on the wall that's built into the wall when I was, you know, right? Late at night, I can still, like, I can bring myself right back to that moment, actually, is the first memory I have, and I might've heard it before that, but yeah, yeah. So I was, I don't know, 15 years old or something like that. Yeah.

soni (01:50.786)
Nice. It's got, it's in a lot of people's memories I've discovered and even my own, because when you birth songs and you're part of the songwriting process as I've been, I have music that's my hootie and the blowfish that takes me back, not to juvie exactly, but it takes me back to certain places. I was lucky to not have to go to juvie, but I'm a fan, I'm a music fan.

Chuck LaFLange (02:13.064)
And I imagine, do you get that often like what I just did there and go, hey, I remember this from that day, like, you know, that must be because music is such a trigger, a positive trigger that way in most cases, right? It, you know, kind of brings back that memory, but yeah, yeah.

soni (02:25.058)
Yeah.

soni (02:30.722)
Yeah, I get it a lot and I wouldn't say it's always positive. I have music that, you know, takes me back to a dark place in life or a lonely place in life. I don't like particularly going back to that music, but it's no less meaningful. I love music more that takes me to a happy or a clear space. And, you know, since I was a music fan all of my life, I'm still glad I am a music fan and I can be part of.

my music being other people's memories too.

Chuck LaFLange (03:02.792)
No kidding, no kidding. It's completely off topic here, Jim, but it just made me think. So I used to date somebody who would send me music all the time. Pretty much it was her language, if you will, which is so common, right? But there's this thing I have, because of the way my brain works, I can listen to a song for 20 years. I don't have any idea who's singing it. I don't have any idea what the actual lyrics are. Sometimes I'll know all the lyrics, but in most cases, I won't know what a song's about.

past being able to say sing along for a verse or so even, you know? So for me to really understand what a song is about, I have to get somebody to send me the lyric version on YouTube. And once I read the lyrics, right? So I've recently discovered and recently being a relative thing, I don't know, it probably five years ago that I discovered this about myself. So now all the music that I've ever listened to in my life, if I go back and listen to it, now it starts to have.

soni (03:41.506)
the

Chuck LaFLange (03:55.24)
It's more than a memory trigger. Now, a lot of these songs all of a sudden have meaning to me that I never did before. It's got this weird kind of Chris's brain thing. I don't know, I'm trying to explain it, but.

soni (04:05.986)
Well, music is whatever it makes you feel, regardless of the lyrics, regardless if you remember who sang it. Music gives all of us a feeling. And I've done the same thing with lyrics where I've, I had the wrong lyric for 30 years and it doesn't really matter. It's whatever the feeling the song gives you. And that's why it's so beautiful because it's interpretive, right? It might be, yeah, the melody might just make you feel good and breezy or

Chuck LaFLange (04:08.2)
you

Chuck LaFLange (04:12.07)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (04:29.608)
Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah, yeah.

soni (04:35.688)
Melody might make you feel dark and introverted and regardless, you get your own personal story with a song. I think that's lovely.

Chuck LaFLange (04:43.208)
Of course you do, right. There's actually a website, excuse me while I kiss this guy .com. And it's all the different lyrics that people don't get right. So I'm sure I don't need to get too much into that. What I do want to get into though with you, Joe Jim, is something I certainly didn't know about you. And I mean, you're obviously not private about it, but is the fact that you're in recovery. And,

soni (04:51.426)
Hahaha!

Chuck LaFLange (05:11.464)
Before we talk about the recovery, which I do like to focus on these days, I'm kind of more about the message than the mess, but what gets you to a point from what I could read around 2000, things started to go awry, if you will. You just want to take us back there and kind of explain what was going on.

soni (05:31.106)
Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, the journey sort of takes a little turn in my life at age 14. I'm already a kid who, you know, likes to go against authority, a little rebellious, a little deviant and a little very curious. And so, you know, a lot of us are like that. And so that's not unique, maybe. But when I for the first time ever find kids,

Chuck LaFLange (05:46.376)
speak in my language.

soni (06:00.386)
that are my age, 14, experimenting with drugs and alcohol. I'm very curious and I am wanting to discover another new thing and maybe another new feeling. So I go right for it, even though I've been told by the police who, since I had older brothers, they were very familiar with my family. So the priests at school, my parents who were great loving parents and who set down some good guidelines for me to live by.

It didn't matter what I'd ever been told. As soon as I saw kids doing something that was illegal and I knew it was unlawful, maybe dangerous, I said, oh, I want to definitely try that. And even though my first attempt was a failure, which was me on the side yard vomiting on my knees and hiding those facts from my parents, even though it was a failure, I looked at it like a sporting event. I was a little kid who played sports. So I looked at it like, well, it's...

one to zero alcohol is winning, but I'm going to give it a try next weekend and see if I can even the score. And I went about doing that through high school with alcohol and with a variety of drugs that were available to us from, you know, different speed or cocaine or mushrooms or acid, you know, whatever we could get our little hands on would have looked like a good experiment. So I was curious and I liked the feeling. I liked the change that it gave me. It took me somewhere. I.

Chuck LaFLange (07:22.76)
Yes.

soni (07:29.474)
I was socially sort of, I guess, in the norm. I didn't have any major social hangups, but I felt it elevated me in some way, emotionally. So I kept going back to it. And I did that. I got to go to a university to play division one soccer here where I was in Chicago and I came to Columbia, South Carolina. It was a big dream of mine. And for six more years while I played soccer and got my degree, very, very slowly.

Chuck LaFLange (07:40.262)
Yeah.

soni (07:59.01)
I experimented continually, looking for the higher highs, looking for the different highs, and ignoring the lows that came with it. So I was really in a good, long, 10 -year period of sort of justification, rationalization that if I wasn't in handcuffs or in jail, then I wasn't the worst, and I didn't need to be too critical about my own stuff that I was doing, even if I was hurting people and causing mayhem often.

As long as I got good enough grades and didn't kill anybody perhaps, I guess I was okay enough. So I never really measured it. And then after that, I'm getting my degree in 1989 and I'm meeting my bandmates, Darius Rucker and Mark Bryan and Dean Felber, who were wanting to finish school also and not go get a desk job, but buy a van and start writing our own material as a band. So.

That's what we started doing. It basically set me on a course to be in parties and clubs and bars for another five years as we toiled and honed our craft and searched out a record deal, which we did happily from till 94. And again, consequences, yes. Relational difficulties, yes. But since I wasn't in jail or the worst guy, I was okay enough.

Chuck LaFLange (08:59.056)
Wow.

soni (09:27.106)
And 94 comes, we get a huge break and it sends our careers through the stratosphere. That begins a whole other chapter, but up to that point it was fun, fun, fun. And I was about to get fun on steroids by virtue of our notoriety, because that brought us to everywhere in the world, including Bangkok. I mean, we traveled for five more years.

east, west, north, south, wherever we could go. And it was a joy and still it was an upward trend. I didn't have the biggest consequences I thought, but I did have continuous relational difficulty and I hurt people and I scratched my head at why I was starting to do some of the things I was doing.

Chuck LaFLange (10:16.936)
So if I can interrupt you, Jim, without the benefit of hindsight at the time, is there any point when you said, consequences be damned, I'm an addict? Did that happen at any point during that process?

soni (10:19.87)
Yeah.

soni (10:32.098)
No, from age 14, I mean, I probably had 20 years of experimenting with whatever drug you happen to hold in your pocket. Uh, before I started to have an intuition and it was an intuition, I think it was inside me that was saying something's not right about my, my use. Um, I'm either doing it way too much or way more consistently than anyone else. I noticed for instance, that my bandmates, when they would,

come off the road to go home to see their families at which you're all starting. They apparently wouldn't drink every night or use drugs at home, which I thought, that's weird. I'm home. I'm celebrating. I'm off the road. Now I'm with my home people and my wife at the time liked to socialize and I sure would use anything to camouflage my need to drink and drug every day. And so...

hanging out with people socially when we got off the road to rest, air quotes for you people just listening at home, air quotes. I wasn't resting. I was doing what I wanted to do. And what I didn't know was now becoming an affliction and a regular thing. I was drinking a lot every night and I was developed a sort of cocaine addiction. And it wasn't pretty, but this took 20 years for me to get.

to that point where I had my first intuition that something was wrong, that I was different.

Chuck LaFLange (12:07.848)
Okay, okay. So from intuition to I've had enough, is that a long process in there as well or did you kind of figure it out pretty quick that, you know?

soni (12:19.81)
Well, I'm a stubborn SOB. So yes, it was about four to five years of intuition to, you know, raising the white flag. And, you know, I had interventions. I had, I missed out, mainly I missed out on a lot of stuff that, cause I was, as the obsession to, you know, during the day to score the drug or find it or set it up for later. And how am I going to,

start drinking and not be look like an alcoholic, you know, start drinking at the appropriate time. All these things take hours of my day and lots of headspace. So I had years where I was just, I didn't realize how much planning it took, but I was using a lot of time. So I missed normal life. I missed. And then as, as the consequences of going to certain places to use certain drugs or finding yourself.

Chuck LaFLange (12:53.896)
Yep. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (13:10.824)
Not kidding.

soni (13:19.202)
staying out later, but sleeping in longer. You miss part of regular life too, including when I started having kids, because it's hard to be a drug addict or an alcoholic and get up to change the diapers every time.

Chuck LaFLange (13:25.882)
NNNN

Chuck LaFLange (13:30.952)
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. So did you attempt to quit at all in that period? Actually, the intervention thing, I want to talk about that with you if I could. That experience for you, and I've had a couple interventions on the show. And my co -host on the weekend, Dr. Lisa, her family experienced an intervention that was not positive experience for them, for anybody involved.

So I want to hear about yours. I want to kind of get your take on how that was for you, right? So.

soni (14:04.45)
Yeah, so to be clear, I only quit or tried to quit a few times. This is before the interventions and during them as a result of people encouraging me very strongly to take some time off or whatever. I didn't ever like the feeling of quitting. I would quit and I would get this just horrible sick feeling. I never knew what it was, like fluish, cold.

It was like, even if I quit for one day and I could never figure out what that was, I guess I learned later it's called detoxing, but I had no idea that alcohol and cocaine, I guess, mainly just because I had a very.

Chuck LaFLange (14:40.776)
Is that from opiates or alcohol?

Chuck LaFLange (14:45.832)
Okay, yeah typically cocaine doesn't have physical withdrawal systems, but alcohol most certainly does, right? So yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.

soni (14:51.426)
Yeah, it was high tolerance. I was just drank great, great quantities of liquor mainly. And anyway, so I didn't like quitting, you know, it was a joke. It was to satisfy someone else's need basically. So it never worked. Eventually the, yeah, the interventions are, you know, first sort of my, my mom was my first greatest intervener with the best intention ever. She loved me and she knew.

Chuck LaFLange (15:18.534)
Yep.

soni (15:19.682)
I was having a struggle with alcohol, drinking too much, never taking time off. And she saw it and she loved me enough to never miss an opportunity, usually in front of the family at Thanksgiving or Christmas to say while everyone's listening, Jim, are you drinking again tonight? Ah, mom, stop it. You're drinking liquor already? It's only three o 'clock in the afternoon. She knew she could get me.

Chuck LaFLange (15:39.496)
Oh, yeah, yeah.

soni (15:47.586)
if she did it in front of people. And it was because she loved me. So, you know, I could deflect it with humor because she taught me that trick. And it was always fun until it was a little annoying. But she was the first one. And then eventually my wife at the time had some things to say, because obviously she's right there on the front lines where we have at least one child or maybe eventually two children at home. And it's annoying to be with someone who can't contribute fully. So.

Chuck LaFLange (15:50.632)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (16:12.776)
Yeah.

soni (16:15.17)
She had some interventions and I know she meant it well too. And then eventually my bandmates, you know, the guys I partied with, yes, all over the world for years, perhaps even enabled me at times, but they loved me and I was causing them a lot of crap, you know, I was causing them anxiety, worry, cause they didn't know always who and where I was hanging out as I had to sort of isolate to find the drugs, you know, where I could get them and.

Chuck LaFLange (16:41.)
Yeah. Yeah.

soni (16:43.18)
drink before everybody else started and finish after they started. So those were nice sweet interventions too, but I wasn't ever ready to hear any of them, honestly. I thought, God, as soon as I can get out of this room, I'll be so happy. Oh God.

Chuck LaFLange (17:00.936)
Right. Fair enough. Fair enough. That shaming in front of people thing. And obviously, I mean, your mother loved you and did it with the best intentions and all of that. But it's like, if only, if only, and you just can't, but if you could just go back, it's like, it doesn't work. Right. If you really want to get my attention, take me to the side and have a conversation with me, but shame me in front of people. And there's all sorts of feelings that are going to start happening. And I know exactly how to cope with those feelings. I got that shit built right into my head now. So, right. Like.

No, right? I have a coping mechanism ready to go and it's in my pocket if I get to take the bathroom for a second, right? So, you know, but again, yeah, of course done with love, right? Done with love, but all right, all right. So what happens to what is there, is there a pivotal moment that happens that kind of gets you to that point where enough's enough or just something that triggered inside or snapped inside you?

soni (17:56.77)
Well, I was so stubborn to hang on and just not say to someone, yeah, you're right. I'm out of control. I don't know what I'm doing. I've lost the plot. I never would allow myself, because I was raised like a lot of us saying, be strong, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You can do this, that whole fight mentality instead of surrender, perhaps. So I missed that. I fought and I fought and...

Chuck LaFLange (18:20.904)
Yeah. Yeah.

soni (18:26.562)
You know, it's funny, the last intervention came from an unlikely source and it was also met with love, but it came from my four -year -old daughter at the time, who, you know, I had, yeah, I had built a music studio detached from our home. It was, you know, back in the back of the lot in a neighborhood. And I'd go back, of course, to make music late at night and often, more often was not making it back in my own.

Chuck LaFLange (18:38.17)
Oh.

soni (18:56.002)
home, you know, to fall asleep because I had a full bar in the studio and I could keep drugs, I could do whatever I wanted. And so on a Saturday night, I was out there probably writing the crappiest song ever because I was hammered and I stayed up very late watering myself and in. So I end up passing out, I guess, on the couch in the studio. And mid -morning on the Sunday morning, I hear this pitter patter coming up the stairs and

I know who it is just by the weight of the steps. It's my bubbly, beautiful, four -year -old daughter, Cameron. And she, I kind of, I can't move. I'm horizontal on the couch and she plops on my chest and she says the last words to me, the last words of intervention that anyone ever said, which was, dad, what are you doing? Dad. She kind of shakes me cause I'm not answering. What are you doing? And.

Chuck LaFLange (19:27.656)
Of course, yeah.

soni (19:55.426)
And I know that in her four year old mind, it's a pure thought. What are you doing out here? Because we're all in the house eating pancakes and watching Mickey Mouse. What are you doing here? And she finally, for the first time ever, I don't have some BS answer. I could always squirm my way out of it with some little lie. And she gets frustrated of my silence. And she jumps off my chest and hustles back inside. And I'm sort of left there for the first time ever. And I.

Chuck LaFLange (20:05.128)
course.

Chuck LaFLange (20:13.352)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (20:20.04)
you

soni (20:23.81)
I'm able to get myself in an upright position and I kind of just look up and I know this question is rattling around my thick skull. What are you doing? What are you doing? And I cannot answer it. And some power or force or desperation for the first time is not letting it go. And I finally kind of say to myself or think to myself, I don't know what I'm doing. I have no idea what I'm doing because I'm out of control. I have a...

Chuck LaFLange (20:45.512)
you

soni (20:53.618)
strong and growing intuition that the drugs and alcohol and chemicals I put in my body are a big part of the problem, but I've been unwilling thus far to do anything. And, you know, for the first time in my, you know, in all the five years of painful regrets and drinking and, and drugging, I decide to do something. I'm going to ask somebody else for help. And I had one phone number that I had crumpled up and thrown in my closet. And it was a guy and he was

Chuck LaFLange (20:58.556)
Mmm.

Chuck LaFLange (21:14.92)
Yeah.

soni (21:23.138)
a guy I used to party with, John B. He had written his number down a couple of times and given it to me and said, hey, if you ever want to make a change or redirect, I can help you out. And I don't know if I knew what he was talking about when he made those offers, but he was doing his job and, you know, trying to help a guy he saw who was sick get well. So anyway, I had this little number and I walked down the stairs, passed all my Hootie Gold records and plaques and...

trophies that didn't mean Jack in terms of the position I was in. They were, you know, accolades that society gives us, but you know, I was in pain and I was desperate and I was about to ask somebody for help. So I called John B and he offered to take me to this 12 step meeting that he had been attending for close to a year. I said, he said, it's at seven o 'clock tonight. And this was about 11 in the morning. And, uh,

Chuck LaFLange (21:52.952)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (22:10.024)
you

Chuck LaFLange (22:18.152)
Yeah. Yeah. Copic mechanism, right? Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

soni (22:19.042)
We made a plan and by about 12 o 'clock, I was scared out of my mind that I'd just committed to my first 12 step meeting and started drinking again, because that's what an alcoholic does. You rely on that pain reliever that's coping. So I did. I turned up that bottle of Jägermeister that was in the freezer and I did my best to stay sober enough.

Chuck LaFLange (22:46.28)
you

soni (22:46.498)
to sit in a very small room with 20 other people, chewed a bunch of gum, had a half pack of gum in my mouth, brushed my teeth.

Chuck LaFLange (22:49.896)
who are all more than aware of all the tricks and of the trade, right? So.

soni (22:57.418)
I'm sure they could not smell the tequila, the Jägermeister, or the bourbon on me. And I have my little...

Chuck LaFLange (23:01.266)
No, no, no, no, you were being very sneaky and probably got away with that. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. So.

soni (23:09.442)
But you know, after 60 minutes, they told me one thing that I trusted and it's, they said, keep coming back. And I said, I believe these people. I think they do want me back. They said, try not to drink, you know, or drug tonight. And when you wake up, find another meeting. And I've, you know, they had given me in 60 short minutes, an idea of myself that didn't exist before. They described a problem.

Chuck LaFLange (23:12.232)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (23:32.008)
you

soni (23:37.41)
which I associated with my problem. They told me a solution, which I'd never heard. And they showed me the pathway to get there through these 12 steps. So I thought, hey, I left there thinking, they're telling me how to do this thing. And they're all people that just sat there and told me their stuff, their junk, their regrets, their misbehavior. And they're all in there kind of chuckling and laughing and light hearted. I said, I think I want some of that.

Chuck LaFLange (23:44.26)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (23:52.472)
Yeah.

soni (24:06.178)
whatever it is they're doing, I'm going to try and get it. So I did. I went back the next day and that was the beginning of a new journey.

Chuck LaFLange (24:11.112)
you

No kidding, eh? No kidding. So I can only imagine, well, I guess the support from your loved ones, from your bandmates in that journey must have been very real and almost tangible, I would think, right, after so many years of being the person that they were intervening on. I mean, at that point, is that accurate? Or I don't want to put words in your mouth or in your story, but you know.

soni (24:46.338)
Yeah, I think I felt support. They were worried about me. They were worried that I was maybe one bad decision away from being in the wrong place at the wrong time or putting a drug in my body that wasn't what I thought. And so they were very worried. So to see that I had quit was a relief to them simultaneously. And as I stayed clean through the months and then years, it also

Chuck LaFLange (24:57.48)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (25:01.304)
Alright.

soni (25:15.098)
broke a bond that we did have as four guys. You know, you're young, you join a band together, you party together, you work your butts off, you get unlikely success and travel the world together partying. You all see each other at your worst and best and there's a bond, like a four horsemen sort of thing that's beautiful. And when somebody checks out of that with a big blatant...

I can't do a lot of things that I used to do anymore. It breaks a little bit of the bond that you have. So while...

Chuck LaFLange (25:45.136)
Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (25:49.32)
which certainly changes the dynamic of a relationship, right? Like, of course it does, right? How is that for you? That's something that I never even considered, Jim. Of course, I've never been in that position, but how does that play out?

soni (25:54.952)
Yep.

soni (26:01.698)
Well, it's one part lonely because I knew I couldn't be in the places that I had always relished, which is when the show ends. Well, let's say when the show begins, we all hold up a shot glass and we toast that we get to make music and that we have fans and we all do a shot of whatever you want. And I couldn't do that first. So I felt like a bit of I felt weak. Honestly, my ego was like.

Chuck LaFLange (26:16.2)
you

Chuck LaFLange (26:21.392)
Yeah.

soni (26:30.114)
You can't even do a shot. You can't handle it. You're like a little baby who's been put in time out and everyone else is doing it and you're not. So then the show ends and that's the meet and greet. It's where you hang with fans and friends and family and really start maybe take it to the next level. I always went very hard to the next level as soon as we left the stage and that might last all night and all morning. But, you know, I couldn't do that. I had to sort of get away from it. I knew it wasn't.

a safe place for me to be hanging out in bars or in the big after show party. So I was back to the hotel room and it's, it was a little lonely. But thank goodness, you know, in those earliest days, so this was sort of late 2004, early 2005, I would find meetings on the road and rant the cities that we were in. This is before cell phones and all that. It was, you would call information, get the intergroup number.

and you could call somebody at Intergroup and say, is there a meeting? I'm in Dallas, Texas, and they might, you'd have to write them down as they set them, and they didn't always have an indication of if it was a healthy meeting or a meeting that was in a safe neighborhood or an unsafe neighborhood. You were going on faith like you didn't even have. So,

Chuck LaFLange (27:30.568)
you

Chuck LaFLange (27:48.424)
No kidding, pre -internet days, I can only imagine, right? Yeah, yeah, all right, yeah.

soni (27:51.586)
Yeah, so, but I was desperate. I really did want and I enjoyed the fellowship, whether I knew people or not. So I went to a lot of out of town meetings and I'm thankful for them because that helped that saved my life is to connect with people know that I wasn't alone and I could be in San Diego or London or anywhere and still find a little piece 60 minutes to, you know, at least latch onto and cling to your life.

to take it with you for the rest of the day until you could hit that pillow.

Chuck LaFLange (28:24.68)
That's really interesting. And something that as of late, the whole connection aspect, the fellow aspect of it, our fellowship aspect, I should say, I am not a 12 -stepper by practice, though that's not because I have anything against the program at all, actually. My first 30 days doesn't happen without the rooms. That's just my reality because of that fellowship. It's just because of the fellowship. It's more a matter of logistics than anything as to why I didn't continue. And though I will say,

I found a resentment at 34 days when I relapsed and not being able to go back to zero in my mind, the shame of that is what kept me out. What made that relapse last a year and a half, right? It was my way to, you know, right? What should have been a day and a half really, cause I was ready. It was a day and a half in and I was like, no, I'm not going to do this, but I can't go back and do zero. And then boom, it was a year and a half later. So.

soni (29:11.946)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (29:23.336)
that the counting of dazing is actually one of the reasons that I never went back, but not the reason. It was more about logistics. That fellowship though is so important, right? And I was able to find it through my podcast shortly thereafter when I did get my shit back together. But I can't even like, oh, wow. And it's one of the things these days that's been coming up quite a bit in the show with different guests is...

is how sometimes there can be this kind of shame process that happens in a meeting about somebody's recovery path or whatever. And I don't know if you've listened to any of this content lately or if you're, I'm sure you're aware of what I'm talking about right now, Jim. And I can't, it's a message that I just can't push enough. Like those rooms, that fellowship that you spoke of that I'm speaking of is so unbelievably important. And I just wish, I wish that the recovery community would.

soni (30:03.74)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (30:22.962)
continue evolving, I will say, in a way that's a little more accepting of other people's paths. Because if you shame somebody in this day and age, you don't know if they're coming back. I don't mean to kind of hijack the conversation and make it about that, Jim, but it's just something that's really important to me and I'd like to talk about it.

soni (30:33.954)
Yeah.

Well...

soni (30:44.866)
Yeah, when it's done right, when it's done based on the foundational principles that fall in the 12 steps and the traditions that support how to make it work going forward for everybody. It's a beautiful thing. But it's also a representation of the people within each room, which are all imperfect people. So whoever thought the thing would be perfect, I don't know what they're expecting. It's not going to be that way because we're all

Chuck LaFLange (30:57.544)
Yes.

soni (31:13.984)
imperfect, but I think when we stick closer to the values or sort of the just the traditions and the principles, it can work great. I experienced a lot of that. Yeah. And also I, you mainly there's a million fricking ways to get sober or stay sober. And I'm, I'm, my heart's open to all of them because I've seen a million people stay sober over very long periods, whether they went by the 12 steps, uh, uh, strictly or not at all, or anywhere in between. And.

Chuck LaFLange (31:20.04)
the fundamentals of it, right? You know, yeah, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (31:29.556)
Yeah.

soni (31:42.914)
The value for me overall that I've seen going forward is, you know, I got to see something and I still get to see it in those rooms, something called the power of transparency. And it means that I sit there in front of people who are pouring their heart out and tell me the real stuff. It gives me courage. It inspires me. And it gives me just encouragement to go forward and say, I'm imperfect. And that's okay because I'm going in my humility.

Chuck LaFLange (31:51.18)
Yes.

soni (32:13.218)
I'm going to acknowledge who I am honestly, and then I'm going to go towards something better. And that's all I'm supposed to do. Everybody is on a million different parts of that journey. But if I get to be in front of people practicing transparency, man, that blew me away. I saw it in the first meeting I ever went to, and it's why I went to my second meeting. I saw people being honest, and I couldn't believe it. I had never experienced that in...

and other groups I'd gone to, whether they'd be in a church or affiliated with a church, I just didn't feel that way. Maybe because I was hiding a bunch of my crap to begin with, but... So, yeah, to be in front of those people was tremendous. And so I get real hardcore. I also have a very sensitive thing that's just in me about exclusivity. And so when I run meetings,

Chuck LaFLange (32:46.606)
Who knows? We do project a lot, right? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

soni (33:07.5)
When I chair meetings, when I'm part of a group that's a group, I'm not going to let this anything that we do be exclusive. And that's a problem in thinking. I don't know where it stems from, but you know, we should be the opposite in our groups. We have to open those doors as wide as we are, as wide as possible so everyone can at least get in, you know, let's get don't. But I mean, we've I've been parts of lots of things where people get banned, people get kicked out. They got all this stuff. I'm like,

Chuck LaFLange (33:28.2)
Right? Yeah.

soni (33:37.474)
You know, when I read about the guys that founded the 12 step model, right? That seems to be working in a lot of ways in life. They were the one of the biggest things they struggled with early was what do we do with these people who are not exactly like us? And they discovered through much discussion and, and debate, we make sure the door stays open for people that are not like us because we got to, that's the whole point of the thing is.

Chuck LaFLange (33:43.912)
Yep. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (34:03.592)
Yes. Right.

soni (34:05.164)
We are the people that have been shut out of other places. That's half of why we drink to excess and try and ease the pain of life is we've been left out or left behind and we got to do the opposite in the rooms. And so the exclusivity or making rules and laws and putting up walls, I don't think that's in the spirit of the founders.

Chuck LaFLange (34:26.663)
No, you're certainly speaking my language. I know you said pre -recording my gym that you had listened to an episode with Mike Miller. Was it happened to be the one about the 12 steps? Yeah, right? Didn't he like, didn't he lay that out just beautifully in that one? I mean, I thought so, right? You know, it's like, yeah.

soni (34:36.034)
Yeah, absolutely.

soni (34:43.489)
That's what I believe. Not that my belief system matters to anybody, but what he talks about are the key points to making this thing work better. Because at the beginning, it worked really well. And it's not working as well 89 years later for whatever reason. And there's a bunch of reasons. But obviously, it's not working as well as far as the success rate of people that...

Chuck LaFLange (35:06.648)
Yeah.

soni (35:12.238)
Try to recover and get recovered so We might be doing some things wrong or we might be needing to update a few ideas Yeah, I mean there's more

Chuck LaFLange (35:16.)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (35:21.224)
tweak, some tweaks, right? I mean, times have changed. This is a reality now, Jim. We're living in an unprecedented time, right? The death rates, so I've been sober now for 17 months tomorrow, it'll be for me, right? I have received many more than 17 calls in that time, right? I stopped collecting people 17 months ago and I've lost way more than 17.

soni (35:38.08)
Nice.

soni (35:44.864)
Mm -mm.

Chuck LaFLange (35:50.792)
That's the kind of death we're talking about now. That's the kind of loss we're talking about now. So yeah, something's going to change a little bit. So it just has to be that way because we're living in a time where outside of war and plague, nothing has ever done this to society. Nothing. That's what we're dealing with. So yeah, a few things do have to change, I think. And evolve, not even change, just evolve.

soni (35:51.202)
Yeah.

soni (36:10.106)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (36:19.502)
You know, just, you know, um, and, and mind you, the way Mike said it, um, maybe it's not about evolving. Maybe it's about going back to the way it was meant to be in the first place. Before we started putting personalities into the principles and all of those things, right? Maybe it's, maybe it, maybe it's meant to go back to the way it was in the beginning. And that is to say, right, just get in here. It's a desire. That's all you need. Get in here. Keep coming back.

soni (36:38.466)
Hahaha.

Chuck LaFLange (36:48.232)
Right, you know.

soni (36:50.754)
It's probably both. It's probably a little evolving because we have some developments in science. We have a changing society that we need to acknowledge. But also, yeah, I think because I've, when I first got in, I was with ladies and gentlemen who were getting sober in the sixties and seventies, which is, and so these people were a lot more focused on from where we came, you know, the founding principles and.

and the way it was done. So I think it's a mix of both. It's evolution and it's saying, ha, let's look at the way they did it at the beginning, because somehow they had like a 50 to 75 % retention rate and people staying sober and we're well below that now. So let's go back and look. And I have, I've read a lot about how it developed, what the founders meant, what culture was like, obviously very different in the late twenties and early thirties when these people were.

Chuck LaFLange (37:34.792)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

soni (37:49.442)
writing the book and and so there's a lot there's a wealth of literature to go back and say Maybe we miss this or maybe we need to remember this the greatest one. I think being Remembering that it's the principles not the personalities. We've we have led a lot of personality it's what I see breakup groups and it's even some of my own resentments in the rooms are I get caught up in personalities and they say quite bluntly we got to keep it about principles and

Chuck LaFLange (38:10.216)
Of course.

soni (38:18.786)
That means we often have to alter our thinking from what it used to be. That means we got to open up our minds. And somebody said once our minds are like a parachute, they're best when opened. I thought that was a good way of putting it.

Chuck LaFLange (38:26.44)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (38:35.752)
I'm wow, that's a meme that's going into a meme. Yeah. Where's my notebook? I just I mean, I have ADHD. I don't have a pen or notebook anywhere. What am I talking about? Right. So. Oh, I really like that parachute. I have to remember that. Well, fortunately, this is being recorded, so I don't have to remember anything, but that's crazy. Resentments. Let's talk about resentment, Jim.

I've mentioned it, you've mentioned it. To me, in my very limited experience, but compared to a lot of people, though compare is not even something I try and do anymore, but to me that's the direct path to relapse, resentments are, and I'm sure in your now 20 years, I guess, whoa, you must be right about your 20 year date, just thinking about that.

soni (39:26.178)
I'm

soni (39:29.986)
Well, mathematically, I'm in my 20th year. I picked up my 19 -year chip at the beginning of February, so I'm in my 20th year, but I've not finished it.

Chuck LaFLange (39:34.478)
Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (39:38.344)
Okay, okay, okay, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah, we're just getting started, right? So, okay, congratulations on 19, by the way. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and every day since, if I'm being honest. But, okay, so in 20 years, we'll say it for the sake of the conversation, you've seen a lot of people come and go from those rooms, obviously, right? In your experience, what's the thing that leads to relapse?

soni (39:46.082)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

Chuck LaFLange (40:04.968)
I mean, as far as you can tell anyway, I would say, I would say resentments, but maybe you have something different to offer on that.

soni (40:11.65)
I think on a more even basic level, a willingness to get honest and not honest down to one layer, but peel it back and get down to what's underneath that. I heard a preacher once talk about putting a comma in after you say what you think you meant or what, uh, putting really like, I think this and then comma really to say, always question.

that first line of what you think you're being honest about or what you think is the truth and say, really? Because a buddy of mine also said, who helped me sort of in my early sobriety, he said, don't believe everything that comes out of your mouth. And this is after I just told him this grand story that I really wanted him to believe and support. And he knew I was a little full of it. And he said, yeah, he has Sony, Sonic, he called me. Don't believe everything that comes out of your mouth. And I'm like, oh, that.

Chuck LaFLange (40:57.448)
Oh.

soni (41:11.392)
That hurts because I want desperately to believe certain things about me, right? I do I want the pretty version of me That's what I try and sell to you and that's just not necessary and it's not being honest. So I've Over time when I've had people call me out on my my honesty really comma It's different and so it's a it's a continuum. It's not like I arrived at honesty. It's continuing to be honest and realize there are

Chuck LaFLange (41:30.6)
Yeah.

soni (41:41.378)
so many depths to that. It means when I'm doing an inventory, maybe the greatest decision I ever made in my life or the most valuable one, doing a four -step inventory at age 40, when I thought I knew better or I thought, ooh, I'm a man of many things. I have some money, I have notoriety, I have a house with a car in the driveway, I have a family, but I was sick. And at age 40, when I started doing the 12 -step model, I did a...

four step inventory and it told me so much because it requires that I not just answer a little honestly, it means I dig down and I get brutally honest and it means at the core, what is my fear? What is my pride doing? What is my self -centeredness doing? And I'm just so thankful that I took that inventory and told it out loud to a sponsor because it freed me of a lot of things. I got to see.

I mean, what's better if you've got an, if life is an obstacle course, right? And you can't see these obstacles coming up and we keep wiping out and tripping up over them. What's better than having knowledge of the obstacle course ahead of time? Cause that's what my four step inventory gave me. It told me I'm afraid of failing. It tells me I practice self pity. It tells me that I have tend towards being fearful and that causes reactions.

It gives me this whole script of things that I tend towards. And that is the most valuable script ever. Because I get to see ahead of time the things that I'm likely to fall into. And I found that to be so valuable. That four -step show me things I did not know about myself. And over time, I know them. I know to look out that I can still be full of it. I know to look out that I'm self -centered.

I tried to stop it, but I can't help it. There's some things I know now. I have lust, right? I have lust and I know that I could get tripped up on it. So what's better than to know that ahead of time so you can do something about it, plan, prepare, yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (43:42.184)
Yep. Yep.

Chuck LaFLange (43:48.104)
Yeah, well said, man. Very well said, very well said. I like that. That's crazy, the amount of self -discovery that happens when you really start paying attention, right? For me, in therapy, you know, with Mike, my experience at Yatra, crazy things started to come out about myself that, you know, and not just about myself, but where it comes from, which is also helpful. And...

soni (44:06.362)
Haha.

Chuck LaFLange (44:15.848)
where kind of therapy to me is the next level of, you know, getting and staying sober has been so important for me, but it's just a necessary step in what I think my recovery is, and that's about growing as a person, right? And therapy on top of being sober has done amazing things for my life, right? It's, you know, amazing things, right? Yeah, yeah.

soni (44:16.546)
Yes.

soni (44:35.234)
Yeah, oh my gosh. It's the beginning. Often it's just the beginning. No matter what your age is, it's who wouldn't want a new beginning? Let's look at the past. We're not going to try and bury it. We're going to acknowledge it and make it a value somehow. So it sounds like you've done that with or without the steps, therapy, and there's different ways to approach that.

Chuck LaFLange (44:54.216)
Yeah. Most certainly. Well, and Mike actually, in that episode that we've referenced now, actually went back and said, well, yeah, you are kind of doing the 12 steps. You just thought, you know, right? And, okay, maybe, maybe, right? I wouldn't be so audacious as to say that about myself and kind of take away from that experience for so many people. But I guess in some ways that I am following those principles anyway. Jim.

What's going on with you now? You've got the book, Swimming with a Blowfish, right? Tell us about that. Tell us about that for sure. Yeah.

soni (45:31.33)
Yeah, well, eventually after, you know, life and its twists and turns and some decisions I made along the way, my life was looking very different by 2017, you know, fast forward, if you will. And I felt I had learned some valuable lessons through the program and, you know, staying around the community of recoverers. I was continuing to.

just have evidence that just really informed me about who I had become and maybe where I even wanted to go. In all, I sat down one day and said, I think I have something to write that I want to share with people. And so on my birthday in 2017, October 20th, my belly button birthday, I got a laptop out and started at the beginning and wrote a little bit about some things in my childhood that shaped me.

eventually leading me to South Carolina and, you know, some dreams that didn't work out. It's about, you know, having options and it's about second chances and it's about how I found my band, our journey, but then maybe more importantly is how I got in a cycle of drinking and drugs that almost killed me and what I used to find my way out. And I, there's a lot of good irony in the book. There's,

some stories about the band from behind the scenes and some things about me and my family that people may have never known and a weird twist at the end, but I won't spoil it for anybody. So go buy the book and find it out. It's a teaser, right?

Chuck LaFLange (47:09.576)
Yeah. And hey, if a person wanted to buy the book, how are they going to go and do that?

soni (47:18.946)
You know, the easiest way, if you think it, it'll probably be at your door before we finish this conversation. It's called Amazon, but there's other ways the Barnes and Noble booksellers have it. I always like to say, go to your local independent bookstore and do them a favor and help them stay in business and pick up a hard copy. It's also available on Audible. And I read the book myself. So that was kind of fun to hear my voice in there. And thanks to my wife, Laura, for saying.

Chuck LaFLange (47:35.11)
Ahhhh

Chuck LaFLange (47:46.28)
Ha ha ha.

soni (47:48.29)
You should read it yourself. Don't pawn it off on somebody else. It'll be better if you do it. So yeah, check it out. We've had fun.

Chuck LaFLange (47:53.352)
I might have to check out that audible copy now, Jim. I guess, really, my eyes are bad. I don't enjoy reading the way that I used to. I used to smash a book a day, and now I just don't enjoy it the way that I used to. But I do still listening, right? It's like listening to a podcast kind of thing, right? So I do enjoy that. And you got a tour coming up, another tour, which is just, that's crazy, man. That's crazy. So what's going on with that?

soni (48:04.546)
Wow.

soni (48:22.338)
Well, we, you know, after, let's see, 2019, we, after a 10 year dormancy, we got together for a tour and we weren't really sure who was out there. There was a big question of how many Hootie fans are out there and who would want to buy a ticket to see them after a while. And it was really great fun in 2019. And...

and very successful. We got to play amphitheaters across America, you know, 15, 20, 25 ,000 people a night. It was insanely more than we had expected or even hoped for. And after that...

Chuck LaFLange (49:00.104)
I'm gonna jump on that for a sec. In Canada, our hockey stadiums are 20 ,000 people. Right? So you're like an amphitheater. Well, no, that's the saddle dome for crying out loud, right? That's 20 ,000 people. How funny that is to, you know, just relative to, right? But, you know.

soni (49:19.266)
Yeah, well, we were as surprised as anybody because it had been a while since we sold tickets out of South Carolina. And so we rolled up the carpets at the end of 2019 and sort of made a little pact and said, you know, we should try this again in five years if the timing works out. And of course, COVID came and stole a couple of years from all of our brains and some of our lives even. That was not

great for anybody who's in the world of artistry or performing in front of people, obviously. But now it's five years later, we decided we're gonna roll out the carpets again and it's called the Summer Camp with Trucks Tour. And it'll be 50 cities across America back in the amphitheaters. And we got Collective Soul, also another 90s band, and Edwin McCain joining us.

Chuck LaFLange (49:52.966)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (50:07.816)
Oh, wow. Wow. Collective soul. That'd be, ah, man. You know, I'm always telling you, I might not know who's singing a song. Every time somebody says collective soul, I think, you know what the Calgary Stampede is? Do you know what the Calgary Stampede is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's also, it's an exhibition, like it's a fair, it's the world's biggest outdoors, it's the biggest outdoor show on earth, they call it, right? And millions of people run through this in 10 days, right? So it's a big, big deal. But.

soni (50:22.218)
Rodeo?

soni (50:26.858)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (50:35.976)
they have what's called the Coca -Cola stage there, and it's free concerts. When Collective Soul got up on that stage, every second song, it was like, they sing that? They sing that? That's me. So that's a perfect example of what I mean when I say, right, you know, oh, they sing that, right? Because I never know what the hell I'm listening to. I just know that I like it, right? So now I'm going to go back through the Whole Hootie and the Blowflesh library and go, oh, shit, they say, no.

soni (50:58.85)
Yeah, well, it'll be great to go out with those guys.

Chuck LaFLange (51:05.096)
Actually, I think that's impossible because that sound is so unique. When you hear Darius' voice, there's just nothing like it. There's just nothing like it.

soni (51:17.77)
Yeah, we've got a big gift when we first heard Derry sing, we didn't know it was gonna hold the power that it did. We were just a little bar band for a bunch of years, but people have so loved his voice, even crossing over to the country market. He's made a huge impact in another second career, so.

Chuck LaFLange (51:38.598)
Oh my, I didn't even do that math. That's the same person that just clicked to me now. Ah, that didn't even just now. It just clicked to me. Oh my, look at that. Who knew? Who knew? All right. Well, apparently you did anyway, right? That's awesome, man. That's awesome. Well, we'll get to the top of the hour here. Unless there's anything that you, anything else you want to offer right now, Jim, anything else you got to say?

soni (51:44.226)
Yeah, the country dude called Darius Rucker.

soni (52:10.498)
No, I mean, I just, you know, go pop on Jim Sonefeld on Spotify, listen to some of my music. It's geared towards a lot of the people out there I've recovered with and some of the stuff that I've learned along the way. So I love having my own personal music as a songwriter out there that can inspire people. I believe there's a massive power in music to make a regular message even more powerful when...

Chuck LaFLange (52:33.416)
Yeah, there is, yeah.

soni (52:38.53)
song even if you don't know who sang it chuck even if you don't know what the lyrics are saying

Chuck LaFLange (52:41.192)
Ha ha!

Chuck LaFLange (52:45.992)
Well, I'll tell you what, I'm gonna go through your catalog and I'm gonna find some songs to make some sunny and a sidecar reels out of. So there you go, there's that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Before we get into daily gratitude, I will say, is there anything that you'd say to somebody who's thinking about making the change or having a hard time with that? Is there any kind of advice you'd wanna give to somebody?

soni (52:52.712)
Nice, please feel free.

soni (53:11.874)
I tell them first they are loved. I would say, you know, the hardest thing we humans have to do is to get over that tangled thought that needing someone else's help is a bad thing. I don't know why we look at that so negatively. We inherently just don't want to have to need somebody else. And maybe there's some fear and some pride twisted in there, but...

Chuck LaFLange (53:14.344)
Hehehe

soni (53:41.57)
for me, it's okay to need help. In fact, there's people waiting whose names you do not even know right now that are willing to give their time and their love to help you. And I'm proof of it because when I decided I needed help and I was willing to ask, I have seen loads of rooms filled with people for 20 years that are willing to help me if I just ask.

Chuck LaFLange (54:09.416)
True story, right? True story. I've said it a few times on this show in the past, Jim. If you want to see how fast the community will jump to you, tell a stranger you don't have a ride to a meeting and watch what happens. Right? It's like make that your excuse and see how fast you get a ride from 100 people that don't know you, right? Or 10 people, whatever, five people that have never heard your name, that you've never crossed paths with, that will show up at your house and pick you up and take you to a meeting.

soni (54:22.848)
Hehehehe

Chuck LaFLange (54:37.16)
And it's kind of the perfect example of what you're saying there. So that's a great message. That does bring us to my favorite part of the show, and that is the daily gratitudes. So what you got for some gratitudes, Jim?

soni (54:48.994)
You know, I've got two things that I'm so grateful for. One of them we've talked a little bit about, but I was thinking about these people today and it's any of the people who bothered to share with me in the form of an intervention, personal, one -on -one, not necessarily the group ones. And that includes all my bandmates. They individually came to me when I was sick and said they were worried and could they do anything for me.

And while they couldn't do anything for me, I needed recoverers. They had a great intention. And I include on that list my four year old daughter who was coming to check on me, even if it was my ex -wife who sent her. I don't care. Yeah. And even my mom who never got to see me a day sober because she was right. She was, she was right. I did have a problem and she was, she was willing to love me out loud, even in front of some family and say,

Chuck LaFLange (55:31.176)
that story. Love it. Yeah.

soni (55:46.402)
She's worried about me. So I'm thankful. I'm so grateful that those people bothered to do that because those were seeds along the way that grew. And when I needed help most, I also remembered, yes, you know what, this intuition inside me, maybe I didn't make it up. Maybe the people that are giving me intervention helped me to discover who I am. You know, they on the outside get to see who I am. I often lie about who I am to myself, but they could see it.

So I'm thankful for those early interventions and those people behind them. The other people I'm thankful for is from the first day I got into recovery, all those people who practiced the power of transparency in front of me, because they give me hope, they give me confidence, courage, inspiration, and encouragement. And it's a wonderful, wonderful tool that I need every day is to be connected to that community.

Chuck LaFLange (56:15.368)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (56:40.68)
That's awesome, man. That's awesome. For myself, of course. Today I'm thankful. I've got these neighbors who I met when I first moved to Krabi, and they're just the most amazing people, and they've helped me navigate some really difficult situations, just what it's like being a foreigner. Afarang, as we're called here. So it's connection, connection, right? It's, yeah, thankful for connection in general, I'll say. I'm also grateful to yourself, man, like I said, for...

soni (57:05.536)
Yeah.

Chuck LaFLange (57:10.28)
pre -recording. I'm a 90s kid. This has been just an absolute honor. Like I'm so thankful that you messaged me and that whoever it was turned you on to the podcast and I'm really glad to have you on the show, right? Very, very, very, very grateful for that. Thank you. I'm also very grateful to every single person who continues to like, comment, share, do all the things down at the bottom there. You know where the buttons are? I don't. Every time you do any one of these things, you're getting me a little bit closer to living my best life. My best life is...

soni (57:34.434)
Hehehehe

Chuck LaFLange (57:39.368)
to continue making all the living spreading the message and the message is this. If you're in active addiction right now, today could be that day. Today could be the day that you start a lifelong journey. Reach out to a friend, reach out to a family member, call into detox, go to a meeting, church, pray, I don't care. Do whatever it's you've got to do to get that journey started, because it is so much better than the alternative. If you have a loved one who's suffering an addiction right now, and you're just taking the time to listen to this conversation, you just take one more minute out of your day and text that person, let them know they are loved. Use the words.

soni (58:10.498)
You are loved.

Chuck LaFLange (58:12.872)
glimmer of hope just might be the thing that brings them back. Boom. Perfect.